Razib Choudhry has a very interesting post about the relative decline of Western power (and of "White superiority" in the world. Check it out and give your comments. My own comments are in the comment section of his post..
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14 responses to “The end of an age? (Omar)”
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is there a specific reason you gave me that surname? :=) yes, i do descend in part from tax farmers, but i suspect others contributing to this weblog could say the same!
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Razib, you now have at least two readers here who are fans. But I didn’t know the tax collecting last name – just the Mongol one. Although my family’s last name isn’t a giveaway like yours, I know where you are coming from. Just came back from Kolkata after re-acquainting myself with several elderly relatives whom I hadn’t seen in decades. Heard many family reminiscences about the erstwhile halcyon feudal days, but mostly in a gentle and humorous way.
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“Razib, you now have at least two readers here who are fans.”
ssshhh! remember, no one talks about my plan to take over the internet with my moles.
i was just curious why omar put “choundhry” as my last name. i googled it and seems to have been a common land owner/zamindar name in bengal, which i kind of guessed. from what little i know my paternal ancestors were tax farmers, though by the 20th century those who drew direct livelihood from the land ran jute farms.
re: “khan”, in the muslim world it is a title of various stations depending on locale. my paternal ancestors received the honorific at some point for some service to some power. i am not a direct lineal descendant of genghis khan, as my paternal haplogroup is r1a1a.LikeLike
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There is much to say about this post and, presumably, the book that inspired it. At the outset I wonder, though, what it means to be intellectually prepared in this context. To be poised to replace one model (WSM) with another (a bipolar world)? To recognize and address the limitations of WSM? To recognize how the need for a new model goes beyond a matter of “purely academic interest”? (Shouldn’t academic interests be indicative of intellectual preparedness?)
Frankly, I don’t quite get how the need for and value of understanding Chinese history, economics, and culture has somehow escaped us. Seems to me there has been significant prompting to do so for decades, even if it hasn’t been generally embraced. The post makes light of white supremacy, treating it as if it were now a stale fashion–now, that is, that most white liberals have an anti-colonial outlook. But anti-colonialism does not “only make sense in light of a model whereby white domination and agency are the preeminent considerations in the lives of the people of color.” Domination almost by definition requires no “consideration” by the dominated.LikeLike
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Razib, the last name part was a (possibly Freudian) slip. I know several Bengali Choudhries and my family used the name in the past (though my father dropped it in favor of plain “Ali”) so maybe that is how you became a Choudhrie in my mind.
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“Frankly, I don’t quite get how the need for and value of understanding Chinese history, economics, and culture has somehow escaped us. ”
so what’s your favorite book on these topics? i like jacques gernets myself, but it is a little dated.
‘Domination almost by definition requires no “consideration” by the dominated.’
english is my second language, so mind being a little more elaborate?LikeLike
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omar, that’s all good. usually i’m ‘rajib kahn’ though :-)
btw, i don’t know how seriously to take your comments dean, but, (Shouldn’t academic interests be indicative of intellectual preparedness?) well, i read some stuff in math that has no direct utility or application to anything which might prepare me for reality. i read stuff on ancient minoan archaeology too which people are confused as to why i’d be interested. perhaps it’s because they’re like you, and they just don’t grok the idea of cogitation without any intent toward utility or application in other domains. perhaps in your world academic interests should be indicative of intellectual preparedness, but not in mine, and those of my readers who i allow to comment on my blog. so now we’re clear on that….LikeLike
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btw, i should have stated shound not necessarily be…. i generally find interational relations relatively boring compared to bronze age archaeology, but i do read some of it cuz it seems more directly pragmatic. i try to maintain a balance, though it can get hard sometimes cuz my own intellectual bias is toward withdrawal from the boring & banal but pragmatic.
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Razib,
I don’t have a favorite book on the topic, because I am not at all well read in it, although your question reminds me of the work of a former professor of mine, Robert Marks, from whom I took a course in 20th century Chinese history. Meanwhile, he has written about much earlier China, too. My point in making the remark was that I don’t understand the charge that we, even as a culture comporting with the WSM, have missed the significance of China for the trajectory of world history. I can recall calls for Westerners to learn Mandarin or Cantonese back when I was a young student. Perhaps the motivation wasn’t then as strong an observation as yours that we’re witnessing the end of an age, but it clearly seemed prompted by an awareness of the vastness and power of the country.
You suggested that in order for WSM-devotee liberals to oppose the domination of Others by the West, i.e., to be ideologically anti-colonial, we (I’ll assume I’m kinda sorta liberal in the sense I think you mean) first need to buy into the assumption that the Others are somehow complicit in their own domination by acknowledging, perhaps tacitly accepting or welcoming, the power of the West. At least that’s what I read into your term “preeminent considerations.” You seem to suggest that the WSM requires people of color, too, to subscribe to it at some conscious level (that of a consideration). I don’t think that’s the only possible assumption. Those subjected often do comply with their own domination, but not always wittingly nor approvingly.
Let me put my point another way. The United States–call it the West–is a racist nation. I don’t mean this as a moral accusation, “Bad America! Go to your room!,” but as a statement of historical fact that can’t be remedied by a new configuration of a tag cloud or translation into a mere “model.”
Still another way: knowing little about the world, I’ve always been comfortable assuming most of the rest of the planet is pretty much give or take America. No need to travel for me, because I’ll always end up gazing at the ho-hum familiar. That shows how powerful and dominant this patch of the West has been, both in terms of the way it has molded my own perceptions and the way it has dispersed the familiar far and wide. If now we are in decline, I am not so willing to assume that an emerging dominating force will completely dispense with the model, the one for which I am already suitably “intellectually prepared.”LikeLike
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Comments crossed in the mail. If I read you correctly, you’re saying that you read about Minoan archaeology for, let’s say, its own sake, and not to help you balance your checkbook or change the oil in your car. To my mind, that, like reading poetry, is as “pragmatic” as, say, going to medical school or…balancing your checkbook. It’s a practice. It has ramifications. Don’t ask me to justify why I do it. By “me” in that last sentence I mean you, but also me. I share your taste for interesting explorations.
My rhetorical question about academic interests follows from those observations. In a post claiming we are intellectually unprepared for looming global change you recite a number of consequences of the legacy of white supremacy, including, e.g., the reciprocal ignorance one subjugated group has for another. Then you write, “This was all of purely academic interest until the resurgence of East Asia, and China in particular.” But academic interests are the foundation and largely the structure of intellectual preparation.
Or did you mean that merely “academic” (in the pejorative sense) interests have no merit outside the academy? That books written about Chinese history prior to the resurgence of China were superfluous? That would seem to contradict the point of your post, as well as your comment here that you value reading material with no “direct utility” to reality. Perhaps you’re saying that what once had no direct utility now does, and that everybody–not just the intellectual classes–ought to respect that fact and pursue their reading accordingly. I just happen to think that direct and indirect are not so easily distinguished. (Besides, doesn’t reading math help you balance your checkbook?)LikeLike
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well, i’m not one for prose simplicity, so i’m not going to throw stones from glass houses, but i have a hard time understanding what you’re trying to say in large part, but a few quick points:
1) interesting book. i’m putting it in my queue
2) i’m not talking about just learning mandarin or japanese, or sampling regional chinese cuisines, etc. these are proximate activities which are fashionable because of immediate economic necessities and utilities. i’m talking about intellectuals reorienting the stars in their sky, so to speak. to give you an analogy, in 1500 the ottomans would have laughed at the idea that they had to know very much about the ‘franks’ (despite the long-standing alliance with france against the hapsburgs). the world was such that such details were not important, because the world of islam was so powerful and self-contained. by 1850 this was not so at all, and the french-influenced reforms in the young ottoman movement suggest the shift.
between 1850 and now we have lived in an age of such great white superiority in military, economic, and cultural, domains that the concerns of whites are important to coloreds to such an extent that all conversations and discussions revolve around the reference of western white civilization. a bipolar world in 2050 will be qualitatively different, because the intellectual solar system will be binary in a way it is not today. probably central asia between 700 and 750 is a good example of a society caught in this binary twist, as the various states played the ummayyad caliphate and the tang empire against each other, and the influences of islam and china were competitive. after the battle of talas the tide turned to islam (talas i would argue is more a marker than important in and of itself), and what was binary became singular. baghdad, not xian, was the reference and font of cultural authority, even if central asian muslims states were always more cognizant of chinese power and influence than other muslims because of proximity.
) first need to buy into the assumption that the Others are somehow complicit in their own domination by acknowledging, perhaps tacitly accepting or welcoming, the power of the West.
no. i don’t think they’re (were) even usually complicit, though sometimes they are. what we’re really talking about are pre-modern elites, and i think men such as nehru’s father were westernized in large part because of the structural factors white domination and superiority. there wasn’t any choice if they wanted to get ahead.
anyway, re: importance. i’ll give you by concrete example instead of abstraction. in 1930 i think knowledge of chinese history and culture would be worthwhile, because knowledge of humanity in all its diversity would be important. but china then was a chaotic and inward looking power, so it wouldn’t have had broader implications outside of self-cultivation. knowledge is often equally edifying, but not equally practical. in 2010, and definitely 2050, it will be different. knowledge of chinese history and culture remain worthy intellectually, but in the broader discussions of international relations, power politics, etc., knowledge of chinese history and cultural will be essential. i think the record of the past 10 years indicates that the end of the age of white supremacy is going to occur earlier than many of us had thought, therefore a broader consciousness raising of these truths is warranted.
specifically in my comments to colored people, many of my acquaintance know the broad outlines of european hisotry, and “their own history.” south asians know about the mughals and all that. arabs know about the caliphates, mamlukes, etc. black americans know about black american history, or perhaps something about songhai or great zimbabwe. as someone who is more interested in chinese history than indian history despite by south asian genetic background i’ve always found this boring; kind of like scottish americans who can tell you all about king malcolm and bannockburn. but at this point it’s not thinking in the long-term. china will matter in a way japan never did because it is so big.
Besides, doesn’t reading math help you balance your checkbook?
no. there are enough jokes about mathematicians not being able to do arithmetic, but the important point they illustrate is that modern mathematics has little to do with adding or subtracting. it would be like saying that an english literature professor is a perfect at spelling obscure words.LikeLike
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Last first. Although an English literature professor ought by virtue of her profession to excel at spelling obscure words, I did intend the math remark as a joke. I’m well aware that math is not accounting.
I’m beginning to understand the scope of your argument. You’re concerned only with “elites” and the “intellectual class,” with the parties who negotiate international relations, the powerful. Indeed, you say as much right at the outset of your post: “[T]his post [i]s a lament as to the total intellectual unpreparedness of the West’s intellectual class for the de facto end of the age of white supremacy…” (my emphasis). Honestly, I missed that. I’ve been confused by remarks like this: “south asians know about the mughals and all that.” I thought you’d been referring to all or most South Asians, but you’re not. You mean South Asian intellectuals. So when you refer to white superiority, you’re not talking about slavery or exploitation. You’re talking about the fact that the West has defined the terms of intellectual progress and debate for umpty-ump years, but now a competing “paradigm” is about to emerge. The problem with my summary here is that the analytical concept of one paradigm ousting another (the reorientation of the stars in their sky) in a defined discipline is itself a product of Western intellectual labor. I suppose by “bipolar” you mean that there will not be a total substitution–Asia will not wholly replace the West–but that WSM and the emerging model will work with and against each other in the arenas of academe and power politics. The upshot is not that the age of WSM is declining, but that the age of the exclusivity of WSM is giving way to one of shared or competing models. Accordingly, the rules are changing, and (at least some of) the revised rules will be inscribed in Chinese, hence it is essential to learn to read them…if you care to play.
I remain confused about how to determine which intellectual endeavors bear on this project of preparedness. On the one hand you prescribe material that will hold “direct utility or application to anything which might prepare me for reality.” On the other you eschew “proximate activities which are fashionable because of immediate economic necessities and utilities.” I think I’m confused because your argument suggests that important enterprises, such as international relations and power politics, must be pursued practically, as one must learn the rules of a game in order to play it. We can fiddle around with poetry or mathematics, but neither will teach us how to leverage the “concerns” of our white, soon to be Asian, superiors. Yet learning their languages is merely “proximate,” not an engagement with the culture itself. Judging from your reading list, we perceive a need to know their civilizations, their religions, their histories, not even merely to know them, but to understand them, to internalize and perform them tacitly, automatically. It seems to me that this degree of comprehension goes far beyond learning rules.LikeLike
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On the other you eschew “proximate activities which are fashionable because of immediate economic necessities and utilities.”
i didn’t say that. complement. everyone knows the utility of mandarin in the future. but this explicit practical awareness doesn’t always work back to a refashioning of the broader mental framework (a shift from exclusive WSM to a more disputed model of power).
you’re general assessment is close to the mark of what i’m getting at.
The problem with my summary here is that the analytical concept of one paradigm ousting another (the reorientation of the stars in their sky) in a defined discipline is itself a product of Western intellectual labor.
first, i’m sure i agree here. early roman christians, muslims, and even chinese had models of one paradigm replacing another. though often it was argued that the new way was actually a reversion to an older more pure way which had been debased by the old way.
but second, naturally the bipolarity is only one aspect. in many ways “we are all westerners,” and will remain so. but the aspects of westernization, such as wearing a suit, generally dating years by the birth of christ, are part of international and almost universal culture now. what will cause tension and which we have to wrestle with are differences and confounds of old expectations.LikeLike
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Razib,
in your reading and conversations, do you see examples of Chinese scholars who already work with paradigms that are foreign to Western thought or less familiar to it?
I am going to expose my ignorance here, but just talking to Chinese in our lab and in other scientific centers, the average Chinese scientist seems to be more thoroughly “westoxicated” than the multi-culti Westerners working with them (they are also intensely nationalistic, which is a different matter). I realize that these are not “Chinese scholars”, and I am not saying their views are an accurate barometer of the Chinese intelligentsia (with whom I am I am almost totally unfamiliar), but what if China is to be a bigger, cruder and shallower version of America, but without the direct and deeper connection to a long-standing European and Western intellectual tradition that elite White Americans (at least until recently) did cultivate? And I do want to clarify that this is not my firmly held position, just a thought.
The above is very liable to misunderstanding, but I will try again if I think we are talking past each other.LikeLike
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